Fandom, Feminism, and Socialization
Nov. 14th, 2005 12:53 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
lotesseI've been trying to understand why feminist critique, both in fandom and outside of it, has such potential to cause me pain. Because I know that it's necessary, god above I do, and I wouldn't banish it for the world. But I do get that sinking, painful, want-to-look-away-now feeling, and I'm not usre that I like it.
This semester has been one of major feminist conflict for me. I have an instinctive attraction to the feminism of women like Virginia Woolf, Emma Goldman, Carol Gilligan, and Ursula LeGuin--the idea that women should not have to turn to the yang side of things to be good feminists, the idea that there is another way of doing things that has traditionally been alotted to women that's worth hanging on to.
Gilligan is a perfect example of this: she points out that men and women tend to view moral dilemmas differently, men focussing on rights and women on responsibilities. Only men's way of thinking has been regarded as correct and/or mature by the psychological establishment. Gilligan argues that the other way, the one that has traditionally been sociallized to the female role, is just as valid. LeGuin does this, too. She talks about writing with the female voice, tellling the yin-ish stories. And I like this idea. This feels like somewhere where I belong. Because I do, as a person, value caretaking above individual achievment. Heck, I'm a socialist. Something Le Guin mentions: the story has been definied (by men) as a thing with a conflict, something that moves the way a thrown spear does. She rejects this, talks about the novel as a vessel, as a carrier bag, something to tuck bits of things into.
Okay, all well and good. but a lot of these ideas are criticized as being part of feminist backlash, trying to tie women to the domestic role again. And I want to say, "no, really they aren't. All women don't have to be like this, it's just that I am, and I don't want to be devalued for it." But I can see their point. And it makes me oh so anxious.
Perhaps it's that I vehemently don't want to be part of the problem. I see the reality of sexism, and I want to make it better. I want to help. And I hate feeling like I'm supporting the misogynists by being the way I am.
Or maybe it goes even deeper, to a desire to not be controlled. I hate the idea that all these things that I think and feel, that I think are me, are really the result of my brainwashing at the hands of those who I would oppose. I want my thoughts to belong to me, not to someone else. And yet I know that there are women who have stuck their heads in the sand and refused to recognized the reality of sexism, and I know that they impede the progress of feminism. It happens. but I don't want it to happen.
I don't want my pleasures to turn out to be guilty ones. When LeGuin or C.S. Lewis or even my own darling Tolkien makes me happy, I don't want to think that it si only so because my thoughts and feelings are not my own. Re-reading Anne, I realized that Anne's life made me happy, and wasn't that horrible, because she goes to college and all but then goes back home to raise six kids and Gilbert gets to have a career. I felt this pang of anger towards myself for enjoying this portrait of the feminine mystique. And then I thought that LeGuin would talk about writing motherhood, writing the yin story, that Gilligan would talk about the fact that Anne chose to help individulas rather than fight the system, and that it maybe wasn't so horrible after all.
The end of the matter is that the things that make me happy, the images and dreams that I most cherish, are not going to be acceptable to a certain brand of feminism. And that makes me very, very afraid, because the success of the feminist movement is something very dear to my heart. And when the things that I love are accused of sexism, it's going to freak me out, because it will plunge me into re-evaluating myself. Someone over on![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
miriam_heddy's journal brought up shaving, but for me the equivalence isn't there. I know that, when I do shave, I'm caving to social pressure. I don't do it often, but I recognize that it makes me far less likely to wear skirts. I know my motivations in that scenario. I'm not acting with complete courage, perhaps, but I'm certainly not deluding myself. And it's that delusion that I worry about, that I will do anything to end.
If the things that I love are sexist, if I love them for the wrong reasons, then I regard that as something I must change. Because I am determined to lead the self-examined life.
This semester has been one of major feminist conflict for me. I have an instinctive attraction to the feminism of women like Virginia Woolf, Emma Goldman, Carol Gilligan, and Ursula LeGuin--the idea that women should not have to turn to the yang side of things to be good feminists, the idea that there is another way of doing things that has traditionally been alotted to women that's worth hanging on to.
Gilligan is a perfect example of this: she points out that men and women tend to view moral dilemmas differently, men focussing on rights and women on responsibilities. Only men's way of thinking has been regarded as correct and/or mature by the psychological establishment. Gilligan argues that the other way, the one that has traditionally been sociallized to the female role, is just as valid. LeGuin does this, too. She talks about writing with the female voice, tellling the yin-ish stories. And I like this idea. This feels like somewhere where I belong. Because I do, as a person, value caretaking above individual achievment. Heck, I'm a socialist. Something Le Guin mentions: the story has been definied (by men) as a thing with a conflict, something that moves the way a thrown spear does. She rejects this, talks about the novel as a vessel, as a carrier bag, something to tuck bits of things into.
Okay, all well and good. but a lot of these ideas are criticized as being part of feminist backlash, trying to tie women to the domestic role again. And I want to say, "no, really they aren't. All women don't have to be like this, it's just that I am, and I don't want to be devalued for it." But I can see their point. And it makes me oh so anxious.
Perhaps it's that I vehemently don't want to be part of the problem. I see the reality of sexism, and I want to make it better. I want to help. And I hate feeling like I'm supporting the misogynists by being the way I am.
Or maybe it goes even deeper, to a desire to not be controlled. I hate the idea that all these things that I think and feel, that I think are me, are really the result of my brainwashing at the hands of those who I would oppose. I want my thoughts to belong to me, not to someone else. And yet I know that there are women who have stuck their heads in the sand and refused to recognized the reality of sexism, and I know that they impede the progress of feminism. It happens. but I don't want it to happen.
I don't want my pleasures to turn out to be guilty ones. When LeGuin or C.S. Lewis or even my own darling Tolkien makes me happy, I don't want to think that it si only so because my thoughts and feelings are not my own. Re-reading Anne, I realized that Anne's life made me happy, and wasn't that horrible, because she goes to college and all but then goes back home to raise six kids and Gilbert gets to have a career. I felt this pang of anger towards myself for enjoying this portrait of the feminine mystique. And then I thought that LeGuin would talk about writing motherhood, writing the yin story, that Gilligan would talk about the fact that Anne chose to help individulas rather than fight the system, and that it maybe wasn't so horrible after all.
The end of the matter is that the things that make me happy, the images and dreams that I most cherish, are not going to be acceptable to a certain brand of feminism. And that makes me very, very afraid, because the success of the feminist movement is something very dear to my heart. And when the things that I love are accused of sexism, it's going to freak me out, because it will plunge me into re-evaluating myself. Someone over on
miriam_heddy's journal brought up shaving, but for me the equivalence isn't there. I know that, when I do shave, I'm caving to social pressure. I don't do it often, but I recognize that it makes me far less likely to wear skirts. I know my motivations in that scenario. I'm not acting with complete courage, perhaps, but I'm certainly not deluding myself. And it's that delusion that I worry about, that I will do anything to end.If the things that I love are sexist, if I love them for the wrong reasons, then I regard that as something I must change. Because I am determined to lead the self-examined life.
no subject
Date: 2005-11-17 10:29 pm (UTC)Otherwise, anyone who read your comment would see that you chose to ignore me when I said that most of us do write original fiction.
And it is true that crap is published. I wasn't making a quality judgement on the work by fic writers which has been published. I was merely pointing out that they are, clearly, writing original fiction.
no subject
Date: 2005-11-17 10:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-11-17 11:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-11-17 11:52 pm (UTC)I care about your idea that your dearly beloved slashfic is somehow and in any way worth valuing as anything other than crap.
I can only assume that you are afraid your loud and little opinions won't hold up in the face of anything resembling an actual discussion of the question, and that is why instead of engaging in one you simply repeat yourself over and over.
That said, I'm not the one writing gay sex fanfiction, so I'm pretty sure I'm still a coupe hundred notches above you on the Class-O-Meter.
It's interesting that you're apparently homophobic and yet you're an anime fangirl. How conflicted you must be!
That said, I could clearly never aspire to the same class as a person whose username ends in "chan".
no subject
Date: 2005-11-17 11:57 pm (UTC)That said, I could clearly never aspire to the same class as a person whose username ends in "chan".
YOU ARE THE BEST EVER. THAT WAS AWESOME. Seriously. I'm chortling terribly to myself and my cat is getting worried.
<3<3
for a cunt who worships at the cunty throne of virginia woolf
Date: 2005-11-18 12:22 am (UTC)OH BACK TO THE FAN FICTION WE'D LIKE TO SEE DEPT.
Henry Chinaski stuffing Virginia Woolf's cunt with dried leaves and using her as a bonfire while singing bittersweet hobo songs.
Re: for a cunt who worships at the cunty throne of virginia woolf
Date: 2005-11-18 12:28 am (UTC)I don't have any idea who you are
Date: 2005-11-18 12:29 am (UTC)Re: I don't have any idea who you are
Date: 2005-11-18 12:56 am (UTC)Re: for a cunt who worships at the cunty throne of virginia woolf
Date: 2005-11-18 12:55 am (UTC)Also, Virginia Woolf has a cunty throne? I have to say, that sounds very un-English, I'm surprised there's not a city ordinance in Bloomsbury against it.
Re: for a cunt who worships at the cunty throne of virginia woolf
Date: 2005-11-18 12:58 am (UTC)We're all a little loony
And in this cartoony
We're invading your TV
Comic dispensers
We crack up all the censors
On Tiny Toon Adventures
Get a dose of comedy
So here's Acme Acres
It's a whole wide world apart
Our home sweet home, it stands alone
A cartoon work of art
Our scripts were rejected
Expect the unexpected
Cause Tiny Toon Adventures
is about to start
They're furry, they're funny
They're Babs and Buster Bunny
Montana Max has money
Elmyra is insane
There's Hamton and Plucky
Dizzy Devil's ducky
Furrball's unlucky
and Go-Go is insane
At Acme Looniversity
We earn our toon degree
The teaching staff's
Been getting laughs since 1933
We're tiny, we're toony
We're all a little loony
It's Tiny Toon Adventures
Come and join the fun.
And now our song is done!
Re: for a cunt who worships at the cunty throne of virginia woolf
Date: 2005-11-18 01:05 am (UTC)Re: for a cunt who worships at the cunty throne of virginia woolf
Date: 2005-11-18 01:16 am (UTC)Re: for a cunt who worships at the cunty throne of virginia woolf
From:Re: for a cunt who worships at the cunty throne of virginia woolf
From:Re: for a cunt who worships at the cunty throne of virginia woolf
Date: 2005-11-18 08:33 am (UTC)And here's an interesting story: thinking something is humorous doesn't automatically imply that I'm a cunty henchwoman who worships Virginia Woolf. I read the thread out of curiosity, and her ending statement caught my eye.
I find your ability to find things offensive exhilarating and intensely amusing. Do please continue! But preferably not at me, because that would make my little sister cry bitter tears over the fact that you got to me first. Oh how sad. And she's really quite cute - it would be very unlovely to see the poor dear upset in such a way.
Love and kisses,
Cunty McCuntface.
* Our Snape which art in Potions, damn creepy is thy name. Thy pimple cream come. Thy hair be done. In Slytherin as it is in Gryffindor. Give us this day our daily whoop-ass, and forgive us our ships as we forgive them that ship us. And lead us not into Defense Against The Dark Arts but deliver us from werewolves. For thine is the cauldron and the cutting board and the slimy hair forever. Amen.
Re: for a cunt who worships at the cunty throne of virginia woolf
Date: 2005-11-18 04:39 pm (UTC)Can I icon that? (The Our Snape which art in Potions -bit, that is.)
Re: for a cunt who worships at the cunty throne of virginia woolf
Date: 2005-11-18 11:23 pm (UTC)Re: for a cunt who worships at the cunty throne of virginia woolf
Date: 2005-11-19 10:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-11-18 12:00 am (UTC)I never said that. As a matter of fact, I've written fanfiction from time to time. I did, however, say that fanfiction writing often comes out of a fear of writing original characters. I've seen it in a lot of people, and it wouldn't surprise me. Would I ever equate fanfiction with serious fiction writing? Absolutely not. It's like comparing fingerpaints with da Vinci---both can be enjoyable, but one actually has, y'know, artistic merit.
"Apparently homophobic"? Maybe I just think gay sex fanfiction is icky. Incidentally, so does the rest of the world.
Re: that baby is so cute (and tired of your bullshit!)
Date: 2005-11-18 12:22 am (UTC)Re: that baby is so cute (and tired of your bullshit!)
Date: 2005-11-18 12:49 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-11-18 01:02 am (UTC)Oh good, we've arrived at the revisionist portion of this evening's entertainment.
You strongly implied that everyone who writes fanfiction was too afraid of writing original characters to write original fiction. If that's not what you meant, I'll take your word for it, but I'm and English student: I read subtext.
Maybe I just think gay sex fanfiction is icky. Incidentally, so does the rest of the world.
Actually, no. You're not the rest of the world.
no subject
Date: 2005-11-18 01:25 am (UTC)If you don't practice, you'll never get better.
You're basically talking to a cook about how good your instant macaroni is, and how it's just as good as my homemade Gnocci with the tomato sauce that all grew in the garden.
Don't get me wrong, macaroni is good sometimes, but don't kid yourself.
no subject
Date: 2005-11-18 01:35 am (UTC)Maybe we're having two different arguments here. The attitude I see myself as countering is that fanfiction has zero validity. That's the impression I've had from what I've been reading in these comments.
I'm arguing that it has *some* validity.
The best fic in the world is never going to be War and Peace (though sometimes they approach the same length.) But it is possible to write fic that approaches elements of genuine literature. Good stories are good stories.
no subject
Date: 2005-11-18 02:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-11-18 03:01 am (UTC)