Fandom, Feminism, and Socialization

[lotesse]

I've been trying to understand why feminist critique, both in fandom and outside of it, has such potential to cause me pain. Because I know that it's necessary, god above I do, and I wouldn't banish it for the world. But I do get that sinking, painful, want-to-look-away-now feeling, and I'm not usre that I like it.

This semester has been one of major feminist conflict for me. I have an instinctive attraction to the feminism of women like Virginia Woolf, Emma Goldman, Carol Gilligan, and Ursula LeGuin--the idea that women should not have to turn to the yang side of things to be good feminists, the idea that there is another way of doing things that has traditionally been alotted to women that's worth hanging on to.

Gilligan is a perfect example of this: she points out that men and women tend to view moral dilemmas differently, men focussing on rights and women on responsibilities. Only men's way of thinking has been regarded as correct and/or mature by the psychological establishment. Gilligan argues that the other way, the one that has traditionally been sociallized to the female role, is just as valid. LeGuin does this, too. She talks about writing with the female voice, tellling the yin-ish stories. And I like this idea. This feels like somewhere where I belong. Because I do, as a person, value caretaking above individual achievment. Heck, I'm a socialist. Something Le Guin mentions: the story has been definied (by men) as a thing with a conflict, something that moves the way a thrown spear does. She rejects this, talks about the novel as a vessel, as a carrier bag, something to tuck bits of things into.

Okay, all well and good. but a lot of these ideas are criticized as being part of feminist backlash, trying to tie women to the domestic role again. And I want to say, "no, really they aren't. All women don't have to be like this, it's just that I am, and I don't want to be devalued for it." But I can see their point. And it makes me oh so anxious.

Perhaps it's that I vehemently don't want to be part of the problem. I see the reality of sexism, and I want to make it better. I want to help. And I hate feeling like I'm supporting the misogynists by being the way I am.

Or maybe it goes even deeper, to a desire to not be controlled. I hate the idea that all these things that I think and feel, that I think are me, are really the result of my brainwashing at the hands of those who I would oppose. I want my thoughts to belong to me, not to someone else. And yet I know that there are women who have stuck their heads in the sand and refused to recognized the reality of sexism, and I know that they impede the progress of feminism. It happens. but I don't want it to happen.

I don't want my pleasures to turn out to be guilty ones. When LeGuin or C.S. Lewis or even my own darling Tolkien makes me happy, I don't want to think that it si only so because my thoughts and feelings are not my own. Re-reading Anne, I realized that Anne's life made me happy, and wasn't that horrible, because she goes to college and all but then goes back home to raise six kids and Gilbert gets to have a career. I felt this pang of anger towards myself for enjoying this portrait of the feminine mystique. And then I thought that LeGuin would talk about writing motherhood, writing the yin story, that Gilligan would talk about the fact that Anne chose to help individulas rather than fight the system, and that it maybe wasn't so horrible after all.

The end of the matter is that the things that make me happy, the images and dreams that I most cherish, are not going to be acceptable to a certain brand of feminism. And that makes me very, very afraid, because the success of the feminist movement is something very dear to my heart. And when the things that I love are accused of sexism, it's going to freak me out, because it will plunge me into re-evaluating myself. Someone over on miriam_heddy's journal brought up shaving, but for me the equivalence isn't there. I know that, when I do shave, I'm caving to social pressure. I don't do it often, but I recognize that it makes me far less likely to wear skirts. I know my motivations in that scenario. I'm not acting with complete courage, perhaps, but I'm certainly not deluding myself. And it's that delusion that I worry about, that I will do anything to end.

If the things that I love are sexist, if I love them for the wrong reasons, then I regard that as something I must change. Because I am determined to lead the self-examined life.

Comments

[hyel.livejournal.com]

I tend to think that the "feminine" way is better than the masculine one and therefore expect men to behave accordingly as well. If they don't, I mock them.

Feminists won't ever all agree. It's what being a dynamic, parliamentary ideology is all about.

[lotesse]

Out of disagreement comes wisdom, I spose. Still, I'm with you: the masculine way of doing things seems pretty silly. No thanks.

[capn-jil.livejournal.com]

Your womb is wandering there, Eve.

[nocash.livejournal.com]

That is an awful way to live.

We're all just people, at the end of the day. How is putting up more barriers like that going to help anything?

[hyel.livejournal.com]

Well, my idea of the "feminine way" is rather loose. If I'd said "common decency" you probably wouldn't be offended, and I consider it one and the same.

Did I say that men are incapable of acting decently, sensibly? No. But when they, or women, are being stupid or violent just to establish pecking order or impress their mates, for example, I reserve the right to mock them.

found this through friends of friends of friends.

[emmaone.livejournal.com]

feminism is about egalitarianism.
egalitarianism is about the idea of equality. all people partaking of it. some of them wear skirts. some of them don't. some of them want to have kids. some of them don't. some of them are men. some of them are women. some of them identify as whatever they choose to identify as, and none of them are excluded from this idea of egalitarianism.

wearing pants because you're afraid you're being too "Feminine" or too "stereotypical" is dumb -- what if it's stereotypical for feminists to wear pants? are you feeding into that? i don't mean this as criticism, exactly. i understand a lot of your plight. but remember: it's not about refusing the home or "stereotypically feminine" occupations; it's about 1) destroying the stereotype and 2) having the option to do what you want to do, whether it's traditionally feminine, masculine, or totally groundbreaking, and 3) not giving a shit about bullshit social constructs.

let's quote a strong woman, shall we?

"no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."

guilt is feeling inferior. you can't feel guilty unless you allow yourself to feel guilty. consider this: i wear a skirt just about every day. i love being in the kitchen, baking bread, making cookies. i want to get married eventually and some eventually after that, have kids. NONE of that is about stereotypical gender roles. i have an affinity for food. i like how i look in skirts. i love kids and i love love.

accidentally pressed post too early, i've got more to say

[emmaone.livejournal.com]

you are worried about things you like being sexist, because if you like sexist things, you MUST be sexist. firstly, this is a logical fallacy, and i hope you can see that. secondly, WHO CARES? are you that invested in what a bunch of people MIGHT hypothetically say to you that you are willing to change who you are and what you like?

the self-examined life also requires one to examine what happens around her.

you can't be everything to everyone. want a platitude? be yourself, for yourself. it's like fubu, but with less commercialism.

you mention a lot of books as being potentially sexist. let's do some more examination:

1) books are written
2) writing is an art
3) art is not about political correctness.

if you're willing to say to yourself that entire swaths of literary history should be impugned because they are sexist, that's your prerogative. and if you subscribed to that, and were teaching a course on literature, i'd make sure to avoid it like the plague.

furthermore, what does it matter if people say you're not a good feminist? seriously?

as to hyel -- that's just as dumb as asserting male superiority. wanna hear something? i know fratboys more egalitarian than you. nice.

Re: accidentally pressed post too early, i've got more to say

[lotesse]

The skirt thing: this is actually mostly about my own comfort. I live far enough north that skirts without tights are just impractical, and I loathe few things the way that I loathe tights.

I think that what I'm saying is not that sexist texts should be chucked or banned or anything like that. My concern is with liking things *because* they are in some way sexist, of being attracted to sexist things. None of us come from a vacuum. Society has its fingerprints all over every one of us. The problem with saying "just be yourself" is that it ignores that. Frex, many many girls get breast enhancement surgery and say that they're "doing it for them." Whether or not that's true, we as feminists need to examine why so many women feel that it is necessary to hack up their bodies to conform to porntastic images. "being yourself" isn't nearly that simple.

It goes back to the idea of the personal as political, the personal in social context. Women's issues were treated individually for a long time, and in that time the social forces that drove their troubles were not readily apparent.

So it's not that I give a fig what anyone thinks of me. It's that I want to be the best person humanly possible, and I'm trying to figure out how exactly to do that.

Re: accidentally pressed post too early, i've got more to say

[lotesse]

I did the smae post-first-think-again thing, and just wanted to say:

Cut my girl Hyel some slack. For one thing, she was talking about masculinity and femininity in the same way I was: as being detached from biology. And there are certainly enough people who value the "masculine" way that a couple people asserting the greater value of empathy and verbalization and caring for others isn't a problem.

With the definitions that I am using, which come from Gilligan's work, the feminine way is to view things and people as being connected, responsible to one another. the masculine way is more individualistic, being more concerned with the infringement of rights. both are valid, but one is overwhelmingly predominant in our culture.

[capn-jil.livejournal.com]

Your argument is essentialist and fallacious. Stop being nineteen so hard.

[lotesse]

I have an argument?

Seriously, I don't think that I do. This was intended to portray a struggle, not an idea. I'm seeing to very different ideas presented by different feminists, and I'm tyring to figure out which principle seems to me to be correct, or if they're both wrong, or what.

And what are the fallacies? the only one I can see is ad hominems from you. If my age has anything to do with it, I should think that it would excuse, not condemn. I thought we were supposed to figure out our own minds in college. That's all that I'm trying to do.

[emmaone.livejournal.com]

if jay were presenting an ad hominem attack, the only one was accusing you of being nineteen. the other claims he made relate directly to your argument, and are therefore not ad hominem. just saying.

Speaking as a writer

[nocash.livejournal.com]

It's words. That's it.

If you want to be "traditionally" feminine, go ahead. I assure you no one cares as much as you think they do.

Quit whining and get awesome.

[seratonin-low.livejournal.com]

If you're trying to define yourself as a 'feminist', then worrying that you aren't living up to some presupposed ideal 'feminist' archetype, congratulations, you fail.

[nocash.livejournal.com]

Also, I can't think of anything more stereotypically feminine than writing slash fiction in an effort to remove the threatening element of both sex. And the fact that you're using other people's characters for your gay porn is removing the threatening element from writing fiction.

[lotesse]

Please, you guys, take the socializing back to your own journals. You're not on my flist. I don't know you. You've all got journals of your own. K thanks bye.

[emei.livejournal.com]

I found a fic of yours recced on hp_girlslash (Calligraphilia, it was wonderful!), and wandered around your journal a bit.

I just wanted to say that it's really a pity that this entry caused such a trolling debate. I found it really interesting, because the same questions keep bothering me.
I believe that what's male and female is created by society. Then how can I know what parts of me and my personality are naturally my own, and which parts I've learned to be?

I hope you don't mind this late comment, but I thought you might like to know that there are some people who do agree with you :)

[lotesse]

Thank you so much for posting this. I've been off eljay for a while--travelling around for the holidays creates sporadic internet connectability--and thought that I'd come back and check this one last time. And lo! There was this lovely response. Hugs for you!

[galadhir.livejournal.com]

I know where you're coming from, and I don't quite understand why people are getting so angry. I am a stay at home mum and housewife, and a feminist. For me feminism is the idea that women are people too; women are just as valuable/intelligent/strong/important as men. This doesn't, to my mind = therefore women must do stereotypical men's stuff if they don't want to. It means that society should learn to value and approve women for whatever they want to do:

Women cook and it's domestic drudgery, Men cook and they're a celebrity chef. Men who paint are artists, women who embroider are..what? Completely unimportant?

I look at Tolkien and I don't see any necessary sexism - the sexism in my view is in *fandom* where they react to wise, queenly, compassionate, artistic Arwen as though she was worthless, simply because she's not out hitting things with a sword. Tolkien knew what he was about - it is, after all, not the 'manly' warrior virtues that save the day in his universe, it's love and endurance; which are virtues more traditionally found in the 'feminine' camp than the 'masculine'.

[wemblee.livejournal.com]

Dude, WTF is with all these people pillaging your journal?

I appreciate the fact that you're struggling with this stuff. I just wanted you to know. Because... yeah. I have no idea why people are giving you shit.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

(Found this through metafandom)

I thought this is a lovely and interesting post - kudos to you for being able to articulate what you're struggling with.

A pity about the trolls, though.

Swatkat

[femmenerd.livejournal.com]

Here via metafandom.

Re-reading Anne, I realized that Anne's life made me happy, and wasn't that horrible, because she goes to college and all but then goes back home to raise six kids and Gilbert gets to have a career. I felt this pang of anger towards myself for enjoying this portrait of the feminine mystique.

I remember that my initial reaction to how Anne's life ended up was disappointment. But the more I thought about it I realized what an important and pivotal role she played. Reading those books actually taught me something about valueing women's domestic labor. And it's interesting to compare them with the Emily books, in which the main orphaned-writing-girl has a successful writing career.

One thing I think that we need to remember in order to not go crazy and be forced to throw out all of our beloved cultural representations is that we can critique something without entirely dismissing it. I think it is very unlikely that we will ever find the "perfect" feminist text (what in the hell would that look like? what with the many varieties of feminism).

Now there are some things that I reject because of my form of feminism but there are vast amounts of others that I think we need to examine for their complexity.

i.e. I'm a Buffy fan and I do believe that it's a feminist show but there are certainly elements that I find questionable. But I will still keep loving it and interacting with it, but not without thinking hard about those elements.

[ghost-whisper.livejournal.com]

I'd have to say that I come from the same position. I'm strongly for the idea that women should be independent and do whatever they'd like to do without worrying about whether people will approve of it. At the same time, I don't think that means a girl should feel forced to run comepletely counter-stereotype and act like a guy, simply because hey! we should all reject the loving and emotional side *only* part of the feminine mythos. /sarcasm

Feminism that says we should act like guys to make things equal isn't feminism at all - I'd say *that's* what's more likely to perpetuate the boundries of a male dominated society. Not a woman who's compassionate and loving because she wants to be.

Incidentally, I found the troll thread full of slash-haters hillarious. Seeing as the original post was about the feminine mystique and it's place in society and the feminist movement... Seems like anything can morph into that old argument about the validity of fanfic and/or slash-fic.

[minna.livejournal.com]

here via metafandom.

I kind of want to say something about traditional roles and feminism etc etc blah blah, but can't seem to put it together in a way that makes sense, so! I enjoyed your post, and shame about the trolls. :3