swallowed by a whale

[lotesse]

You know, there's a (damaged) part of me that really does believe in love virginity - except coming from the opposite angle of the sex-negative fundamentalist doctrine Libby Anne discusses at the above. Instead of fearing that I was in danger of losing the purity and intactness of my heart as a younger girl, I now find myself horribly convinced that, having oddly enough played by (most) of the old rules, having committed myself to forever with my first boyfriend & first sex partner but then having had that go all to hell, I've irretrivably lost the valuable commodity of a virgin heart. I no longer have one to offer. And without one I feel resourceless.

I know that's broken logic, but that's how it feels, right now, deep down inside. I am glad to have language for it, though, & will seek to do some patching. It's a way that I feel out of touch with my age cohort, because I keep finding emotional resonance in the words of older divorcees leaving long-term marriages that few of my friends have had the time to build as of yet.

I do wonder where I picked this stuff up in the first place.

Comments

[boxofdelights]

Is it okay if I argue with that broken logic? I know it's probably living at a level that is inaccessible to present-day arguments, but I *want* to make it confront the fact that we get better at relationships by having relationships! I was my husband's first girlfriend. We were a couple for thirty years. (I was sixteen when we met, 46 when I moved out.) It was mostly good and we are still good friends. BUT if he had had a few breakups before me, with girls who didn't believe he was their one true love, with girls who were willing to say that his self-centered inability to share the decision-making was just not good enough, it would have been better for both of us. And for our children.

[lotesse]

Can I poke a bit for details? Because I very much want to be convinced! But being able to "be a better girlfriend" feels like a vague promise at the moment; I hear it, but it doesn't properly impact.

[boxofdelights]

Yes, of course. And it's not just to be a better partner, but to recognize and object to unfairness and unkindness, which is not easy when you don't have a standard of kind, fair treatment from someone who loves you to compare it to.

[lotesse]

What I feel afraid of right now is that all I've learned is when and how to leave, when what I really want is to be able to stay. Somewhere. I've never figured out how to like dating - I want to skip to the part where I'm committed and safe. It seems like other people feel safe before commitment, but I haven't got the trick of it.

[staranise]

As a different flavour of Christian, what gets me most about that doctrine is not whether or not it prizes virginity, but a more over-arching concern of, Fundamentalist culture seems to believe that any kind of sin or imperfection is the moment at which your path with God/ability to live a good life comes to a screeching stop, instead of the beginning of a new cycle of continual rebirth. I guess it's the "irretrievably" I have a problem with. Jesus died for our sins... except for that one thing you did once when you were young. It's not the Water of Life, it's the Tepid Murky Water of We Forgive You In Name Only.

I really hope you find a way forward.

[boxofdelights]

It seems to me that the advantage the virgin heart brings to relationships is the same advantage the virgin body brings to sex: if it's crappy, you won't know! But it doesn't make the sex good, and it doesn't give you any help at all in figuring out how to make the sex better.

Do you feel safe asking for/working for change in friendships? I've been surprised to see that lots of people don't, even when they can be very articulate to everyone but the friend in question about what is bothering them and how they would like it to change. Sometimes it seems that the more important the friendship is, the less likely they are to talk directly to the friend about the friendship's problems.

[highlyeccentric]

I had never particularly subscribed to the idea that virginity had special value, and yet, coming out of a (relatively short) abusive first-sexual-relationship, yeah, I felt broken and dirty and like I no longer deserved the things I had valued in relationships before that. Like I was too small and weak to surive in the dangerous world of Adult Sexual Relationships (where people have experience and complicated kinks and will look down on me) but no longer deserved anything else.

I thought I'd got rid of it, but recently I had a really lovely couple of nights with a chap who had very little experience of sex (but plenty w/r/t to life), and it spun me out. What if he thinks I'm a SLUT and even if he doesn't I don't DESERVE that and and and.

TL:DR Screwy relationships screw with your head!

[wordweaverlynn]

Fundamentalist culture seems to believe that any kind of sin or imperfection is the moment at which your path with God/ability to live a good life comes to a screeching stop, instead of the beginning of a new cycle of continual rebirth.

As a former fundamentalist (and still a Christian), I suspect this has a lot to do with the doctrine of salvation through a one-time conversion experience. Fundamentalist theology declares that just asking Jesus into your heart is sufficient to guarantee salvation, regardless of past or future conduct, and eternal security means you cannot lose your salvation no matter what you do.

In practical terms, fundamentalists don't have the powerful tools of social control available to religions where works matter as much as grace. Therefore, in order to keep people in line, they are far more rigid, restrictive, and doctrinaire about behavior than, say, the Roman Catholics, who drink, dance, and hold Las Vegas night right there in the church basement.

Classic Baptist dialogue:
"So if Hitler had been born again when he was young, he'd still go to heaven?"
"Yes, but there wouldn't be any stars in his crown."

Fundamentalists worry about their witness -- that is, the impression they're making on the always-watchful unbelievers. Despite the assurance of eternal security, they do often act as though backsliding in the smallest fashion -- or even disagreeing on minor matters of doctrine or practice -- is a sign that the person "isn't really a Christian."

Learning to be flexible, that growth is often a matter of two steps forward and one step back, that disagreements don't have to end in severing all fellowship -- that it's possible to disagree without being utterly cast into darkness -- these can be very, very hard for former fundamentalists.

[wordweaverlynn]

You are full of wisdom.

[princessofgeeks]

Good insight, though a sad one. I wish you healing.

[havocthecat]

I have some advice, which you may feel free to ignore, but before I say anything else: Breakups hurt, and hurt hard, and they're so difficult to get through. I'm sorry. Sometimes it helps to read other people's words, sometimes it doesn't. But I've been there, and I hope it helps to know other people who have gone through what you have and made it out okay.

All right, now onto the advice you may or may not want -

The thing that love virginity concept doesn't accept is that love is not actually finite. You don't have a set amount of love in your heart for all the people you will ever love in your life, and so each person you meet and love later in life gets less and less of a percentage of your heart. That's not how love works.

When I was in my first relationship, I feel in love and thought I could never feel that love again for another person. Turns out my first partner was an abuser. I was right to leave him, even though my heart felt broken and I felt like I'd never be whole or in love again. I loved M. I loved B. I loved a few other people too. I had my heart broken over and over - and yet, I have no less love for Mr. Havoc than I did for any of the other people I dated. I have more love for him as our relationship has grown, and honestly? Part of that is because I have loved others in the past, not just because of learning from mistakes, but because I honestly believe that having loved one person will keep love growing in your heart for another - even after heartbreak.

A virgin heart, one that has never been in love and never been broken, doesn't know how to weather the storms of a relationship. Loving a few times and losing a few times before meeting Mr. Havoc, well, that made my heart stronger and gave me the experience to weather the trials of this relationship, which is still going and isn't ending any time soon.

[executrix]

What's better than a virgin heart? A learned and experienced heart. The flower is the promise, but the fruit is the achievement that brings the future and is nourishing as well as beautiful.

It's no surprise to me that some people who call themselves religious can be narrow and unforgiving. God can create a Universe, they can't, so it's sad but not surprising that they also can't be as wise or as merciful as God. OTOH, well, they don't *run* the Universe either.