lotesse: (curioser)
throbbing light machine ([personal profile] lotesse) wrote2014-10-16 08:43 pm
Entry tags:

tied him to a tree like saint sebastian

two questions about the Vorkosigan Saga:

1. how does swearing someone work in terms of the armsmans' score/Vorloupulous' law? When Miles swears Arde and Baz in - when Mark swears Elena - do those count as additions to the number of Vorkosigan Armsmen? Because neither boy acts as though a slot needs to be open before a swearing can happen, on penalty of high treason. Is there a textual explanation, or is it a crack in the narrative?

2. Why, when Bujold so obviously understands why aspects of Miles' courtship of Ekaterin are really borderline in terms of acceptable behavior, does she choose to have the story go down that way? There are all of these words about how Ekaterin needs some time, some confidence, some space - Bujold clearly does get it, at some level. Does she just not care? Why was it necessary for her to write the story about Miles pushing Ekaterin's consent and disrespecting her boundaries and still getting her to marry him in the end?

It would have been really cool if it had gone the other way, actually been a healthy and functional romance all the time, instead of just some of the time.
staranise: A star anise floating in a cup of mint tea (Default)

[personal profile] staranise 2014-10-17 02:07 am (UTC)(link)
1. I wonder if it's twenty people per Vor, rather than per family?

2. I only just realized this, but ACC is a huge homage to Dorothy L. Sayers' Gaudy Night, in which a similar courtship takes place over months and years. I think LMB wanted to preserve the basic story of "man pursues a woman who believes she is broken and no longer eligible for love; realizes he can't 'fix' or 'save' her, is humbled, and apologizes handsomely; she is inspired to pursue him, and they all live happily ever after." However, she tried to fit it into a too-compressed timeline.
ithiliana: (Default)

[personal profile] ithiliana 2014-10-17 02:25 am (UTC)(link)
I agree with Staranise on both points: I think it's 20 people per Vor (because I'm remembering in the Cordelia duology that both Aral and his father had their armsmen.

And yes to the homage to GN, and to the rush which is tied up with the action/spy/political narratives of Barrayar which are in both of Ekaterin's novels.

I have loved Bujold's work for a long time but more and more I am uncomfortable with how her major female characters (except for Ista in the Chalion series, but only Ista) are treated. It's....well, it's one of those problematic things. I LOVE the characters, but I wish they had the time/space/narrative attention that the male characters do.

ithiliana: (Default)

Spoilers in linked review

[personal profile] ithiliana 2014-10-17 02:28 am (UTC)(link)
And here's a review that was a major influence on me shifts/discomforts in readingn Bujold (although writing a paper on the Chalion series for the Bujold conference last summer led to some major re/thinking in terms of the female characters--i.e. Bujold can have queer male characters but not female characters (I don't count consider Donna or Dono as queer).

http://ltimmelduchamp.com/criticism/campaign.html

(One of the male academics writing on Bujold gets grumpy about this review by Duchamp--and other feminists reviews of LMB's work--if you like, I can try to give you the info).
princessofgeeks: (Default)

[personal profile] princessofgeeks 2014-10-17 03:29 am (UTC)(link)
1. The sworn armsmen that are the personal retinue are different that the sworn subjects of the district count. Apples and oranges. The sworn retainers are a separate thing.

2. I will have to think more about this.
antisoppist: (Reading)

[personal profile] antisoppist 2014-10-17 09:43 am (UTC)(link)
Here via network. I agree ACC is homage to Sayers and one in which the woman gets to do the asking and save the hero instead of the other way round, and I get Ekaterin thinking "well I know how it's going to end, and I will give in eventually, so why not just do it now, when my giving in loudly and in public would actually be useful to him" but after that I'd like them to agree on a five year engagement at least before she has to become Countess Vorkosigan, in which she can go off and gain garden design qualifications, set up a small business, or whatever she needs to do By Herself in order to Be Herself. She needs to find out who she is without Tien before she gets swallowed up by Miles, who tends to swallow people.

I'd also like the version in which Tien doesn't handily die and they all have to work that one out.
melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (Default)

[personal profile] melannen 2014-10-17 12:29 pm (UTC)(link)
I think I just assumed that the Vorkosigans (and probably a lot of other Counts?) keep a few armsmens' slots open for emergencies (like the ones Miles is always having.) If that's the case, though, I wonder why we never have Miles getting yelled at for wasting the open spaces on people who are, well, in space all the time. <_< Arde, at least, is implied to be a full Armsman, iirc, and it doesn't really make sense to me that every Vorkosigan could have his own set; that could get out of control really easily.
oracne: turtle (Default)

[personal profile] oracne 2014-10-17 01:02 pm (UTC)(link)
Sayers influenced a lot of people, so I think she's worth reading just for that. (I imprinted on her work early, but I think it's valuable, objectively.)
lannamichaels: Astronaut Dale Gardner holds up For Sale sign after EVA. (Default)

[personal profile] lannamichaels 2014-10-17 08:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Regarding the armsmen, Bujold retcons herself a couple times on them. It is explicit later on (WG?) that armsmen have to be from that district... but Bothari's not, and that never comes up when it should otherwise in WA and Mirror Dance. There's no indication that anyone other than a count can have armsmen; they're the leftovers from the Count's private armies, their armed support is reduced just to 20. There's a fan theory that some put forward that the Count gets 20 and the heir gets 20 also, but that's not really anywhere. So Miles is basically swearing armsmen on behalf of his father.

It's only legal if there are places in the score to do it, and it's possible that there are. We don't ever get a full list of armsmen. It also could be that Miles is banking on the fact that he's unlikely to get caught, that it doesn't completely count. He's not thinking about VorL's law at all.

But it's just not explained.